Why can't you just buy components anymore?

Here's my experience with trying get a Densitron Chip on Glass Display. I am not singling out Densitron, in fact, this experience is completely typical of what happens every time I try to buy anything not found at the local Radio Shack or Fryes.

Surfing the Web one day, I find an intriguing component that I'd like to incorporate into a project I'm building, in this case an LCD display.

At this point I want to:
A. Find out how much it costs.
B. Buy one.

This being a text book example of a mediocre corporate web page, I wade through several tens of thousands of bytes of pretty yet pointless graphics to find the 100 bytes or so that tells me where to find the local distributor:

Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Western Canada

Quest Marketing Inc.

16710 116th Avenue S.E., Ste5

Renton, WA 98058

Tel: 425 228 2660

Fax: 425 228 2916

E-Mail: Questmkt@ix.netcom.com

Products: Displays, Industrial Computers & Peripherals, Electromechanical Products

From: Charles A. de Turenne
Date:Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Chip on Glass display
You wrote:
>
>The Densitron site listed you as the closest distributor
>to Portland OR, can you tell me where I can get chip on
>glass displays?
>Thanks,
>Brian

Dear Brian,
Thanks for your inquiry. We are the Northwest Representative for Densitron, located in Renton, WA. I'd be happy to send you literature on chip on glass. Please reply with address, full name, title (engineer or purchasing) and phone number, and I'll send you information promptly.
Thank you, Rebecca Salcedo

From:Charles A. de Turenne
Date:Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:46 AM
Subject: Densitron
Dear Brian,
I wasn't sure if the original post got to you this A.M. Just in case, I'll tell you again. Please send your full name, title, mailing address, and phone #. I'll be happy to send literature to you immediately. Thanks for your interest!
-Rebecca Salcedo

Did you notice that what the customer asked for wasn't even addressed? Did you notice that they clearly didn't bother to reply to the email, they just boilerplated with literature I didn't want and requested my vital stats so they can fill out their own marketing worksheets? I don't blame these two people I haven't met, because I get this identical routine with all components sources everywhere. I already know better than to try to get these people to deviate from their program, so I just send them what they ask for.

From:Charles A. de Turenne
Date: 4/30/98 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Densitron
> Dear Brian,
> I wasn't sure if the original post got to you this A.M.
> Just in case, I'll tell you again. Please send your full
>name, title, mailing address, and phone #. I'll be happy
>to send literature to you immediately. Thanks for your
>interest!
> -Rebecca Salcedo
Brian McGinty
Owner - McGinty Microcontrollers
3807 SW Water Ave. #23
Portland OR 97201
(503) 219-9213

http://www.pacifier.com/~mcginty

send the pricelist too, please?

The literature I did not want without the pricelist I did want shows up on May 6, 1998 (the postmark is 1 May so it was the USPS who let it sit).

But Quest is out $.55 postage and a very nice brochure and spec sheet and paper clip and color business card of the one guy in a metro area of 1 million who controls access to this magic youth serum, or $8 LCD display, whatever.

Being a masochist I drive to the office the next day without calling first:

Oregon Sales Office
7525 SE Lake Road, Ste. 9
Milwaukee, OR 97267

That is an industrial park area so I don't know if it's a 40,000 square foot manuf facility or a dingy one room office. (Guess). Since 10:30 AM on a Thursday is not universally considered a normal business hour, it's locked up tight. The name is now United States Northwest Marketing with a different phone number. They have a lot of posters of Spain or something stacked against wall so I'm guessing experience in industrial electronics transfers to the travel industry pretty easily.

When I get back I call the number and it has been changed to (360) 666 4559, which is across the river in Vancouver, WA. I get a recording for Quest Marketing (hooray!) and I leave name, phone number, chip on glass.

How much you wanna bet they can't tell me where to buy one unit and how much it costs?

2:14 PM Friday, Got a call to my machine from Bob Clark, from what sounded like a car phone. Sounded real decent, will try and call me Monday morning.

9:07 AM Monday, 11 May 1998. Got a call from Bob Clark. Unsurprisingly my name, address, etc. has vanished into the ether again. Nutshell is that I'm too small an organization to deal with, and there are no distributors that sell Densitron products either. He'd put in a request for me but he wasn't too hopeful. Neither am I.

10:07 AM: Chuck calls back (while I'm updating this page, in fact) and gives me the bad news: $500 minimum order, which is "15 or 20" displays. I found out the price, at least. Nowhere else stocks them. Gives me the names of other places to try. I guess I have some closure on this issue, at least.

Again, I don't blame Rebecca or Charles, (or Chuck) it's just their bad luck I finally decided to write a page on this subject this week. They do a good job within the system; it's the system itself that is screwed up. My request has already been routed through at least three mandarins (not the orange). If I had to explain this to a Martian, he would correctly deduce:

1. The real purpose of these people is to keep the product AWAY from the customer.

2. Densitron does not actually manufacture displays, it manufactures photographs and brochures of displays.

Other Examples:

Here's another example:

I'm looking for an Atmel Microcontroller. Atmel's site lists FIVE suppliers/distributors for Portland, Oregon.
A typical conversation goes like this:

(Ring)

"Hello?"

"Do you sell Atmel Microcontrollers?"

"Yes!"

"Do you have any in stock?"

"No."

Almac/Arrow (yes, but none in stock)
All American (yes, but none in stock)
Insight Electronics (yes, but none in stock)
Marshall Industries (yes, but none in stock)
Pioneer Technologies (phone disconnected)

Got any more examples? Send them to me and I'll put them on this page.

"Here's a gripe.
I'm working on a project and thought we might want to use the M-Systems Disk-On-Chip flash disk emulator. So I check out M-systems web site and find that Marshall is the local rep. So I call Marshall on march 25th requesting a price in quantity 800. They say that the rep is *** ******* who will call me back within 24 hours. Well, I didn't hear from him within 24 hours and found another source. Then on May 6th, 42 days later, I get a call from *** ******* who says 'I have a note on my desk that you're interested in the Disk-On-Chip. I'll be in your area on friday and would like to get together with you'.

How do clowns like this stay in business?"

"I read your web site about your encounters trying to by parts... great page...
here is an encounter I had recently...
The other day some one went around my apartment complex hanging up signs with a local surplus computer shop with their products, web page and email address. Since I live in Mississippi, there isn't a big selection of these types of places, so I figured I would check the place out. I look at there web page and discover that their one page flyer is a print out of there entire web site, so no new info there. So I try sending an email asking about some types of computers that I was interested in. Mail returns as not deliverable. They are about the only place in town selling cheap computers, (hell, about the only place selling any kind of computer...) and they don't even bother putting a correct email up on there web site or their flyers...."

"Howdy,
Here's a copy of the message I posted to comp.robotics.misc a little while ago. I thought it might sort of fit in... I needed a few 8051's (blank, of course), and so I bought three of the JimPak units from a local supplier. Imagine my lack of pleasure when I discovered, 400 miles away at a job site, that all three units were already burned! One of the units had an IBM copyright, and the other two had copyrights by SummaGraphics. Sooo- no real problem; I returned them to the retailer (Signal Electronics, in Torrance, CA - they were saints throughout this episode), who was very apologetic, and exchanged them for three more. Same problem!

I was a bit upset by this time, and as we have direct account with Jameco, I called them up to find out what was going on. It turns out that all their 8051's (and several other items, as well) are "pulls" from old equipment. The technical person there told me that, by simply tying the EA line low, I could use the chip as an 8031.

Well, that's handy! 'Course you lose a couple of I/O ports that way, and if your design uses the internal ROM 'cause there is no external, you're kind of SOL.

So, I no longer buy 'em there. It might have been nice if they sold them for what they are, though!

Mark"

17 May 1998
After my little fiasco with Densitron (I went to TOYS-R-US, found a little spelling toy with the display I wanted, dropped $29.95 and cannibalized the display out of it) it happened AGAIN. I'm looking through the newest issue of Product Design and Development and see a company in Clearwater FL, that makes a miniature shaft encoder that's pretty close to what I want. It's very small and can measure 512 counts in one revolution (My math may be a little shaky, but I seem to remember the number 360 coming up often in circular motion. This doesn't seem to have penetrated the consciousness of the design engineers for any shaft encoder I've seen.) But I can do a little math on the silicon to get the 1 degree resolution I want. A quick stop at their web site shows its very fancy and has lots of great links to other sites, but this portion of their product line is unhelpfully listed as "encoders". Not broken out by model number or specs. No prices of course. So I decide to drop $.55 on a long distance to FL. A human answers the phone (big plus) who transfers me to Paula. I tell Paula I want to buy one of the IE series encoders (the two paragraph ad didn't mention model numbers). Paula informs me I must speak to an engineer, and quite firmly informs the stupid customer that he wants a encoder/motor and they do not have just encoders. I choose not to defend my opinion. Actually we are in agreement, as I'm sure she thinks talking to me is a waste of her time and I'm sure that talking to her is a waste of my time. After some more supplication on my part; I have to establish that I indeed do not have the inventory, product specifications and internal procedures of a company I never heard of before today committed to memory, I finally tell her "I just want the one in the picture." At last I'm transferred to the engineer who will assist me in choosing the product. The engineer is away from his desk and I'm in voice jail. I hang up. Why bother?

"I read your page on 'Why can't you just buy components anymore?' and agree with it completely. It has gotten so bad that I generally won't use a component unless I can buy it either from Digi-Key or Newark. Those are the two suppliers I have found to be reliable. They seem to be in business to sell chips and will even take credit cards from small companies like mine. Perhaps the thing to do is to take all the Electronic Products News type magazines, and put them in a 6-month FIFO buffer. Then you pull the mag from the top of the buffer and anything that looks interesting, you check for in DigiKey. If it's there, then get a few and try them out.

Seems like too many of the component producers are losing track of the fine line between marketing and sales.

Mark Borgerson"

"Brian,
Here is one for your compilation.
I get literature from LUMEX a company who makes opto devices. I found way in the back of the catalog they sent a nice IR detector module that is the size of a side looking photodiode. It had the specs and so forth. Perfect I finally found a tiny IR detector module instead of the huge metal cans that they normally come in. So I call them to inquire. They transfer me to the engineer I need to speak with. I tell him the part number from the catalog and he says "hmmm, you sure that is right?" I said "Yes." and gave him the catalog number and told him I just got it. He follows with a "Can you hold?" and promptly clicks out before I can answer. What does he care, it isn't his dime. About a minute passed and he was back saying he found it and asked how many I'd be interested in. Keep in mind this is an engineer, not a sales rep. I said "Eight." and he chuckled a little and said that might be a problem. So I asked where could I get these parts through retail. He asked "Where are you?" and went on through all that to tell me my local retail distributor. I asked if these were in stock at the factory and was told they were not. So I asked if they has ever been produced he said no. I said what is the minumum order size. He said 500pcs at 2 bucks a piece. I asked what the delivery time would be and he said 6 to 8 weeks. The bottom line was that I was not going to get these parts. My local distributor wasn't going to purchase them in a 500 piece lot to sit on. I asked about sampling them and was told "MAYBE" one but certainly not eight. I tried to talk some supply houses into selling these parts but to no avail yet.

I had a similar story with the Sharp GP2D12 IR Range finder with analog output."

13 Nov 1998
Hi Brian, Here's another story to add to your list if you like... Recently I decided to reorder stock of the IBM PowerPC 403GCX, which up until now had been sourced by Marshall (appropriate ominous noises in the background). I went to their web page and was horrified to find that although they _did_ have stock on the part, the minimum order was now 240 pieces (and this at about $30 each)! Before this point Marshall had been very liberal about selling just about any of their parts that they had stock on in just about any quantity. Very nice. But not any more. I searched through their website for other parts and was confronted by similar results. Extremely high minimum orders for virtually any part but "consumer" items like hard drives and scopes. Needless to say I was a little annoyed as I was into my third design with the chip. I then sent off a nasty email to them as well as placing a call to ask what was up. The lady I was eventually connected with told me in no uncertain terms that this was the new way of things and their were being very hard-nosed about the whole thing. In despair I checked IBM's web site for distributors. Hmmmmm.... They are a billion-dollar company and they list three, one of which is Marshall. I find out that the second has been bought out by the third-- Bell Industries, and trot over to their website. Salvation! It appears they carry them and they are even cheaper than Marshall. I fire off an order for a couple, noting that there is no way to really know whether they have stock or not (a vague lead time is given, but I figure the couple days listed is ok). A day later I receive an automated reply via email that these parts cannot be shipped and a seperate email from a person stating that these parts are not in stock and the minimum order is (you guessed it) 240 pieces. I send an email back to the guy, asking how I can possibly know what pieces are in stock. No answer. A couple days later I call the guy and he very nicely explains he has no clue about these parts and passes me to someone who does. This guy explains that these are weird, non-stocking parts and he would surprised if _anyone_ carried them. I finally decide to go to the source, and email IBM directly. I get back a reply soon that tells me that the parts are available via a "paid sample" order. No prices, and no quantity stated. I email back asking for specifics and am told that he is unaware of a price, but that the quantity in 24. Ouch. Still pretty steep. About this time I finally get a reply from my flame-mail to Marshall, where I am told it may be possible to hassle the ordering person I talk to into breaking the minimum order. Ok, having exhausted all other avenues I call, and the person I speak to doesn't so much as bat an eye when I make such a request. I order 5, and presto-chango it's done. I receive the parts a few days later. It still irks me that I am effectively at the whim of the person who takes my order on whether I can get parts or not. They might be having a bad day and then my expensive project is down the tubes... Why does it seem like distributors these days don't want to stock parts so much as they want to act as an intermediary between you an the manufacturer? I expect if I did order the 240 piece minimum, IBM would ship it to Marshall who without so much as opening the box would then ship it to me.

> Here's another story to add to your list if you like... Good one..it's on there next time I update the page..yeah, when that number '240' came up you knew where those parts were coming from...

Jan 23 1999

This one definately had me going "What can hapen next?"

Hello Bryan, I was reading your website experiences, and found the page on subject, I identified myself in lots of them. From several funy suppliers experiences, I can recolect one that is particulary funy.
"In 1996 I developed a device that needed to use infra-red communication at 57600bps, so I waste 2 weeks searching the web... this was new tech so old books, catalogs and magazines say nothing about. I found out about the IrDa technology, their website and finaly found out that Temic (Germany Telefunken) was producing it. The main circuit was the optics itself, the TFDS3000, a plastic device with a transmiter and receiver pin leds incorporated. It needed a companion device the TOIM3232, a UART controller that can send and receive the special pulses expected and generated by the TFDS3000.

I did call Temic and was directed to call Future Electronics, what I did and surprisingly, right after a week I got one piece of each part as "sample", I don't remember if I needed to pay for it or not.

The device I was developing was a prototype and I did sell the project so my responsability was to build only 150 prototypes for the customer, them it would be his problem.

So I did call Future Electronics again and requested the quantity for the first half production batch, 75 units of each part (this is how the customer wanted). I received the parts in less than 10 days, assembled, delivered to the customer, then the customer requested the second half of the prototypes.

Future Electronics told me that the TFDS3000 could only be sold in 750 units reel... asking why, they said because it is produced with a special plastic and the reel is sealed against humidity. They say if the part receives moisture it needed to be heated again in a special oven, to "cook" again the package... isn't that ridiculous? They said 750 or nothing.

I did call Temic enginering, they said the same, so me, a stupid technician, in a small company, made the fatal question: What happens with the unit when we break the reel seal and install the parts on the boards? what happens if it absorbs moisture? and it will!!! they said - well, this is different, but they were never able to explain. There is no possible explanation about it, right?

I called Temic Sales National Manager, and ended in the desk of Mr. Ed Sulivan, a nice person, by phone and by email, gave me authorization to ask Future Electronics to break a reel seal and supply me the 75 pieces.

I called Future, they said - Ed what? well, Mr. Sulivan went out for vacations or something, and I got into the "limbo" again, with my customer calling me twice a day asking for the prototypes.

At that time, other companies started to produce the transceivers, and they were selling in small quantities, and my boards 99% assembled waiting for the Temic parts.

After several days of phone talking, Future Electronics decided to send me the 75 pieces, and they sent, the wrong one, instead of TFDS3000 they send the controller, the TOIM3232, now I have 150 pieces of that, and no one TFDS3000.

One lucky day, almost crying on the phone with a local sales lady in California, she transfered me to a chinese employee, responsible for something connected with lab testing... he said - oh, this is your problem? how many pieces you want? I said 75, he sent it in two days, no charge, sent the upgrade unit, the TFDS4000 that there is no issue with moisture anymore...

All the time, the solution was at everybody's noses, but nobody was aware to pay attention to the problem... the TFDS4000.

Just because I am a very small company and represent nothing to their objectives, I simply don't exist. I called Future to return the extra 75 TOIM3232 wrongly sent to me, it took 8 months to receive the RMA#. During that 8 months they called me monthly requesting the payment for that 75 pieces. When they called me to give me the RMA#, they said it would have a "reestocking fee" in the amount of $300 or something like that... it took two more months to fix that.

The text is long, and I don't expect you to apply it to your web page, but isn't funny?

Wagner."

--------------------------
07/27/00
I just read about others problems in getting parts. I'm glad (sorta) that you have problems in the US, it's not just here in Australia. It's not like we're a third world country or anything (I probably could get parts easier in a 3rd world country 'cos that's where they're made. :-)

I have a couple of 8032 designs, and decided to update them. i figured some kind of flash device would be cool, it free's the two ports and removes a couple of i/o devices. I call atmel distributor, and it goes like this :

"got any flash 8052's?"
" nope, none in stock".
"Got any 2051, 4051's?"
"no".
"How about flash AVR's?"
"no".
"Can you get any of these?".
"oh, yes, we can order them in for you"
"What's the lead time?"
"Um, about 8-12 months" (yes ! a year, I can hardly wait !)

same sort of story with Philips ( I even tried PIC, same story on ANY flash parts...)

Needless to say, I'm sticking with the 8032, with external RAM, ROM etc. At least I can buy the standard part nearly anywhere....

Anyway, I hope this suits your site.

Catch,
Mark

--------------
3 Nov 2000
I read your page about suppliers. I laughed and laughed. I was delighted to hear it wasn't just little, old me in western Canada (Victoria, BC) that was experiencing such a ridiculous components ordering fiasco. I have empathy for all those designers who have written in expressing their deep frustration of the utter futility of trying to buy an advertised product. What a crock!! One would think that the hardest part of being a designer would be dreaming up the magic. The hardest part for me has always been dealing with that fiasco I laughingly call "parts acquisition". Great page, Brian Mcginty, it truly gave me a measure of solace. Wouldn't it be great if someone developed some sort of search engine linked to a database for "in stock" parts only, with an "actual price" listed instead of "call" with real quantities listed with exact locations, where there was a datasheet linked explaining the subtle differences in every ordering code number offered. We can dream...
--------------
Feb 08, 2001
Dear Brian,

I agree with your page, completely. There's no percentage in customer service, period.

I don't understand why Radio Shack bother stocking components. The staff appear unable to do anything except hype wireless telephone subscriptions.
A couple of months ago, a pimply young Radio Shack employee and I had this conversation:
ME: Excuse me, can I ask you a question?
RS: What.
ME: I've been looking through the components rack for a 1N1416 diode. Do you have any in stock?
RS: Do you know what you're going to use it for?
ME: A project I'm building.
RS: Oh. You mean, like it's a part or something.
ME: Yes, it's a diode.
RS: [ blank stare ]
ME: Do you know what I'm describing?
RS: What do you want it for?
ME: I the diode for a circuit I'm assembling.
RS: What part number is it?
ME: It's a 1N1416 diode.
RS: [ sternly ] That's not a part number, sir.
ME: Do you know what a diode is?
RS: [ blank stare ]
ME: It's a semiconductor. DC will move in one direction through it but not in the other.
RS: Naw, we don't have stuff like that.
ME: I've purchased them here before. Can you check your computer and tell me whether any are in stock?
RS: I need the part number.
ME: Can't you just type 1N1416 into your machine?
RS: [ handing me an inch-thick catalog ] If you can find the part number, I will see if we carry it.

----------------------------
10/22/02
Brian, in a bit of irony, I came across you page "Why can't you just buy components anymore?" while looking for some components. I noticed you haven't updated it in a year, but even now the situation still exists.

What I was looking for when I came across you site was a Atmel AT49Fxxx flash ROM. Now, you'd think if Atmel wanted to sell these parts, they would have a list of where you can get them on their website. In fact, they used to have such a list. Not anymore. The link to "Distributors" points back to the same page that the link is on! Now they have no information on how to buy them.

I guess I could call them up, but reading the experiences on calling electronic manufacturers makes me sour on the idea.

I guess they don't want my money. That's interesting because I thought they would, because, you know, they would like to make money. But then, what do I know?

BTW, I did love your comment on manufacturers from a Martian perspective.

Matthew Butch
Student Senate Parliamentarian
Student Senate Constitution Committee Chairmen
Student Senate Webmaster
------------------------------
01/05/03
Hello Brian,

I very rarely write emails just to say, "Great page!" but after reading the page on your website about trying to obtain components for your projects and reading about others' ordeals I had to write you. You have my sympathy as I can relate completely. In never ceases to amaze me that a company would spend millions on R&D, production, and advertising just to let their "distributors" sabotage sales potential. I will perhaps at a later date email you with a couple of my experiences you may or may not wish to add to your page but as I have spent so much energy trying to source certain ic's I only want to lie down now and slowly rock back and forth and try not to cry ; )

Seriously though, the distributors don't understand that today's 10 off order may someday down the road be the 25k order or more they seek. I wonder if Steve Wozniak would have just thrown his hands up in the air and said "To hell with it." if he had to design the Apple today?

Shane Ely
------------------------------
Note: I am not fishing for free samples. Unlike the entire Washington Press Corps, I'm not bought off by a table full of lunchmeat and crackers. I've gotten/could get more tons of often real expensive stuff, but how can I use it in a design unless I can get more? I just want to pay money for your product. Why is this such a complex concept for the electronics component suppliers?