Declaw Debate 2 (Hot & Heavy !!!)

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:52:22 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: Stop declawing!

Well, I am not altering the cats here by sterilizing them either. Like I said John, I can go in (handle) my cats and they all have claws except for 2 of the rescued tigers that came into the refuge this way! I did mention that all not some All of the fatal cat attacks came from declawed cats, so if it is a safety measure then why didn't that apply in these attacks? How is it that all of the tigers that have attacked-and killed people had been de-clawed, why? Because that is BS, The reason people do this is that they are scared of the cats, and or they dont want the little baby cubs scratching them when they are bottle feeding. Which by the way isn't a problem for me, when we bottle feed any cubs that end up here we teach them to sit while taking the bottle and receive little to no scratches using this technique. George Stowers told me that declawing is a personal choice- my argument- not for the cats, I'd bet that they if they could speak would say please stop hurting us.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:03:06 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: claws made their way through evolution

>And as a side comment, claws made their way through evolution, not to

BS- You should refer to the claws as tools, they use it to hold their prey during the kill, then they make the kill with the mouth, show me where a tiger kills with it's claws alone? If this is a safety issue why didn't it work with the fatal attacks on people?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:10:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: : declaw

You've both misread the meaning of my post or maybe I wasn't clear enough. We have a VERY strict hands-off policy with the public. We HAVE to. The public must remain at least three feet from the enclosures as per regulations. But this doesn't stop kids from climbing over fences, or adults from reaching in and trying to touch the pretty tiger. When we do an off-site show our cats are contained inside portable display cages and we have volunteers that make sure the public remains a safe distance away, as well as a parimeter containment around our entire setup. But, as we all know, accidents happen.

It comes down to a matter of calculating risks. If our cats never left our facility, and if they never ran the risk of coming into contact with the public, except for an escape, there would be no need to remove the claws. And we haven't... and we don't. This isn't for OUR safety in the cage -- teaching a lion or tiger not to use its claws is trivial and one of the first things you learn about raising a cub along with no biting. It's not really for the safety of the public either. It's because if one of those casual public viewers just happens to do something uniquely stupid and get injured by a cat, and then sued us... well, I don't even want to go down that hypothetical road. But more importantly, it would also be all the fuel needed for a sensationalist attack for 'tougher regulations' or more outright bans on big cats. Another accident statistic to be used against private owners. I don't want to think about how fast the local media would vulture in on such a story.

In our philosophy of conservation we are educating the children (30,000+ last year) by offering them a chance to see a big cat up close and talk to them about the necessity of conservation. The impact we are having is obvious by the hundreds of thank you letters from both teachers and children, and our accredation by Chico college to offer intern and research programs at our facility for college credits. Our outreach program is even more necessary here because some schools are so poor they can't even afford to bus the students to our facility. It's sad when the first question you ask some third-graders is "How many of you have seen a real tiger?" and one out of three raises their hand.

We're working towards conservsation on different ends of the same issue, and it would be nice if in the future we all met in the middle.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:13:59 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: Barry R. Kirshner Wildlife Foundation

Last I heard the barrier is 4 foot not 3 feet away, none the less we too educate school children estimated 90,000 per year through-out the US, and we do this with tigers whom have their claws, without an incident thus far. Perhaps you could do the same without declawing the cats?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:09:14 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

I have a lion and a tiger both 15, both declawed, they run, jump, play and use their feet to knead with. They do not walk flat footed or have arthritis or any other type of feet problem that I have seen. Just my experience. Glenda

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: claws made their way through evolution

Read again what John just said, Brian. He said that they use their claws to help them kill. It's pretty much what you just restated. They hold their prey and kill it.

And who was talking about fatal attacks on people from cats with or without claws? The issue was preventing accidents. Granted, a death is typically an accident but a very extreme one, and not one very representative of what we're talking about. Nakobi doesn't have claws but I'm certainly under not false impression that he couldn't still kill me. Even without his fangs I wouldn't fool myself into believing that. As I've often heard said "Tigers can kill you with love."

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:22:31 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: Glenda

Why do you declaw them? Just wondering what your thought are in this area, even if they are not having problems, do you think that they have social problems when they are trying to eat their food, etc.?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:29:15 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: sean

I am not trying to bash you or anyone, I just want to try and better understand why you and others declaw if the tigers are still a danger, this means that it's for no real reason(s). Explain to me where it would make some sense to continue such a practice?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:18:20 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: JW

Brian, get out of my face and take your point somewhere else. I have never declawed any big cat, they came that way to us, as I said... so shut up and do things your way in your life and leave it at that.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:38:57 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: JW

What is your problem? You seem to give your opinion on here all of the time and then when I disagree with you on something you start comments like below. Well what ever, all I am saying is why declaw? You're saying that it's okay, which might lead others to doing this, which means that you are just as much a part of it as they are. Or am I not allowed to disagree with you or challenge what you say? IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN SOMEONE MAKES GROUND ON AN ISSUE YOUR RESPONSE IS TO SHUT UP AND GO AWAY....

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:07:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: more info.

Brian; Why not show you these statistics? How about for the reasons that I can't, and it was never my contention in the first place. This is something that you brought into the discussion hoping to dismantle the whole saftey argument for declawing. This is one of those situations that's more of a philisophical arguement: You never know you weren't safe enough until you have an accident. Or if you're lucky it's just a near accident. We preceive the out-reach cats having claws while around children and the public as being a risk we don't wish to take. The reason we choose to declaw is we've seen absolutely NO problems with any of our currently declawed cats, as well as declawed cats in the past, that would motivate us to change this decision.

So far, all the arguements against it are the butcher jobs and the rare cases where something went wrong; or the inferrence that we're a less civilized country for not banning it; or people anthropomorphizing lions and tigers and ascribing powerfully human emotions and experiences of pain to them, despite the posting of one vet that went into some amazingly good detail about how animals differ in their preception of pain. Not to mention my OWN experiences, one of which was watching my lion bang around the house only a few hours after having his claws removed. I asked my vet about pain medication for him and his words were, "He won't need it."

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: Glenda

> not having problems, do you think that they have social problems when

Social problems in what aspect? I play with our 3-year-old lioness's paws all the time just because it's a good thing to get them used to and it a closeness that her and I enjoy. She can grab with her 'fingers' nearly like a person. Throw something in the air she can catch it. As for trying to eat, there's nothing 'trying' about it. In fact, if she doesn't want her food to get dirty I hand her one piece at a time and she holds it in her left paw and eats it piece by piece.

Another tiger learned that I kept treats for her in my outside jacket pocket. One day she reached out, curled her fingers into the edge of my pocket and ripped it open. Bad girl! But certainly no tenderness or shyness about her paws. No insecurities about not being as cool as the rest of the tigers. She doesn't grow up lamenting that she won't be able to paint them red and hit the streets when she's in heat. What types of social problems?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:10:55 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: Glenda

When I started out the first cat I had was declawed so I did not have any choice in the decision. The next 2 cats I got; one was declawed and the other was not. The guy who was placing them insisted that the 2nd cat be declawed before he would place them with anybody. He stated he was willing to place them with me because he knew I cared for them and would allow them to remain together since they had been together since just a few weeks of age. The 2 cats are a lion and a tiger and both males. The former owner had also insisted that the tiger be neutered and the lion have a vasectomy performed before they were placed. I did not want to breed animals into an overpopulated captive population and did not have a problem with his request.

The Vet that performed the surgery spoke with several other Vets and Vet techs who had done this surgery before. He was told to remove the nail bed on the then 5 year old male lion. I thought we had checked out things well with others who had more experience in this area. The lion was declawed using the removing the nail bed method. "BIG MISTAKE" This poor lion subsequently began regrowing claws that came in underneath his skin and became infected much like an ingrown toenail. This complication required an additional 3 surgeries to correct. The lion suffered because of it. I was doing the very best I knew how to at the time and had done research and had asked questions. It still was not enough. I have spent many hours since then questioning many things and crying because my mistake in judgement caused my friend so much pain.

The other surgeries were to remove the joint which I have since been told by many is the proper way to do it. I have heard just as many say don't do it that way do it the other way. Since that time we have had other animals and I have chosen to declawed them at a very young age with no complications. The main reason I did so was out of fear of some idiot who would not follow directions or somebody climbing a fence and sticking fingers where they don't belong. Over the years of working with trained professionals, Vets, volunteers, family members, new media, and friends I can say maybe 1 person in 500 will has enough sense not to stick their hand or fingers in to try to scratch the kitty or touch the pretty tiger. I have also seen other case where the same individual involved in breaking the rules get startled because somebody came up and saw them breaking the rules or the animal moved suddenly and they jumped and pulled their hand back and got a scratch. Even though the animal was not at fault and never tryed to bite it still resulted in the animal loosing its life because it could not be proven the animal had not caused the scratch. Its a wild animal and must be tested for rabies.

I don't like it, I don't agree with it but it still makes no difference the animal dies. Maybe somebody has some documented case histories where the outcome is different in court but until I see something I think I could stand in court on I think declawing is a safety issue. I do not do it because of my safety but theirs.

I would not EVER declaw an adult cat again because of what I witnessed my poor Kodiak go through. I apologize to him everytime I spend a few minutes with him. I am so thankful he does not hold a grudge against me for it and still loves me soooo much. He loves to sit with me for hours and as long as I am with him he is happy. Same with the tiger.

The 4th large cat I got was a female tiger and I declawed her early and have not witnessed any complications with her feet. She was sore and did not feel very well for a couple of days after the surgery. At that time I made the decision to declaw because I wanted her to be able to eventually be together with the other cats that we had so she could have some companionship from her own species and not just humans.

When the decision was made to breed a wild animal into captivity the decision that this animal would have to live life amount human society and human rules was made at the moment the animal was concieved in its mother's womb. No matter how wrong or unfair any of us believes the rules of human society to be they are a fact of life for us and for the animals we care for.

The 4 cats are now 15, 15, 13, & 7 years old. None of them are walking flat footed or have arthritis. They all use their paws to knead, hold, and swat things like I have seen the cats we have here with claws do. Our cage floors are earth and I keep pea gravel on top enough that they don't have to walk on compacted earth over the years and the pea gravel is deep enough that it provides good drainage so that they do not have any standing water inside of their enclosures.

This is a crude comparision but the only way I know how to express my thoughts on this subject. If a human infant was to have the first joint of their fingers removed when they were young (6months) and done under sanitary surgical procedure the same child would notice only minor effects of this being done because it would grow and adapt to what had happened to it. I think the child as it grew would learn how to read and write as well as work a keyboard or play video games, use a remote control, can opener or any of the other things that we do on a daily basis normally. I am not saying that anybody should ever entertain the idea of doing this just using it as a reference point I guess.

If as a parent I knew that doing this procedure would be something that most likely would save the child from being killed because the rest of our society was to ignorant to follow directions then I would do what I felt would be in the best long term interests of the child.

I can totally understand why many of you do not want to and do not believe in declawing your cats. Most of what you say I agree with. Maybe for me the thought of declawing at a young age is easier for me to live with than the thought of me with a rifle gunning it out with the enforcement people who would come to remove one of my children because somebody was untrustworthy or stupid or selfish or what ever else you want to call it and had gotten a scratch or scape and now it was time for kitty to die because of it.

I know I may sound like a paranoid overreacting person but its the best I know right now. When I know better I'll do better. Like I said before this is just what my experience has taught me. Glenda

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:58:22 -0800 Subject: FEL-L: declaw

>if done properly, does it do harm to them when they get older?<

Let me preface to say, I would never declaw. But I also believe that it can be done well, with no ill effects to a small/medium sized cat. Lions and tigers, I feel differently about due to the sheer body weight on the tips of their toes.

I have first hand knowledge of two cats an adult cougar (large at about 185 lbs) and an adult tigress (5 years old) that had progressive foot problems due to bad declaw surgeries. This manifested much worse at 1 1/2 - 2 years old when reaching full weight. Corrective surgeries were even attempted as last ditch efforts with the tiger. She was finally euthanized to stop her crippled suffering. The cougar is doing much better and his pads are oiled regularly, along with being given steps to come down from his platforms. Both were on concrete for a brief time, but that was rectified and the problems were ongoing. The time spent on concrete was measured in months.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:10:46 -0800 Subject: FEL-L: safety issues

> fear of some idiot who would not follow directions or somebody climbing a fence and sticking fingers where they don't belong.

This kind of fear keeps comming up on quite a few posts. We at FCC are open to the public. 98% of our cats have their claws. We never allow the public to see the cats unsupervised. If this is a problem with a facility, then maybe they shouldn't be open to the public until they are able to have volunteers or staff that can watch the public sufficiently.

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:57:45 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

I wasn't going to comment but, we have a 8 yr. old male cougar that was de-clawed very young for the plain reason that he is our pet and part of our family !! He's not out in the wild, he doesn't need to catch & hold pray or to use them to defend himself !! He hasn't had any problems at all !! He still holds us or his blankey (kneads on it too) with his fingers. If the cat isn't going to be interacting with humans then why would you de-claw. He still has all his teeth so if need be he can use to defend, but he shouldn't need to in captivity right ?? Or decision was to insure our safety and allow us to get closer to him. We don't have him to show off, but to love, enjoy, & learn from !! Lauri

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:17:27 -0600 Subject: RE: FEL-L: more info.

>or people anthropomorphizing lions

I'm sorry, Sean, but I couldn't let this one pass. You may love big cats very deeply, but you have just parroted back the same inference that "animals" don't feel pain the way "people" do that has been used to justify any and every form of animal abuse throughout history.

I would agree that animals differ among themselves in many ways, including the human animal. But it is not anthromorphizing lions to say that pain HURTS them, anymore than it is to say humans die of cancer because we are leonizing or tigerizing them.

I spent an eye-opening summer working for a vet, including assisting in surgery. When domestic cats are declawed, they almost always begin to wake during the procedure because they can't afford to put them under as deeply as they do dogs. They begin to moan and writhe. "That's why I hate this procedure," the vet said.

Perhaps lions, tigers, and leopards do not have a human understanding of what has been done to them, or how long the pain will last, or even what part of them is now missing. They know how they feel at the moment, and that life goes on. They face it stoically where humans tend to dwell on the pain. But I assure you that the sense of touch--and of pain--is just as vivid in most mammals as it is in humans. That the cats face it in ways we humans would label "stoically" or "bravely" (pardon me if I anthropomorphize) is no mark of the degree of suffering they endure.

Here's another fact for you. Humans in third world countries often undergo operations with little OR NO anaesthetic. They face these procedures with the same reaction as big cats. Before we "leonize" these black and brown skinned people by saying their perception of pain is different from our own, I mention a few details of my own given me by a UNICEF doctor..."These people do not think they have a right to be without pain. They know they can do nothing about it, so they do not complain."

As for how doctors are at perceptiveness, I remind you of a time when I was growing up and all gynecologists were men. Back then women did not have PMS. They just became hysterical and imagined it. Now with many female ob/gyns in hospitals around the world there are three different over the counter medicines made for PMS.

Am I saying that human doctors are biased? YES I AM. When they go into medicine as young naive heroes and heroines out to relieve suffering and save lives, they sooner or later have to pick up a scalpel and overcome the natural revulsion to cutting a living being. In order to facilitate this process, there are certain losses of innocence foisted upon them (for better or worse) by their instructors to give them the determination to cut open a living being in order to save it. Some vets take comfort in imagining the different REACTION to pain means a different PERCEPTION of pain--but I'm a behaviorologist. I studied animals while they were on all fours, and ladies and gentlemen there is LITTLE OR NO DIFFERENCE in pain among the mammals.

Do not take this personally, Sean. I consider you as yet another person "taken in" by the circulating myths of medicine. We live in an age where a doctor can't even tell when a human being is better off dead, and what are called "heroic measures" are actually the cowardly gropings of men in green suits afraid of failure. Our society does not even have a consensus on how to treat its own members, much less those who cannot speak our languages.....

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:13:11 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: more info.

>wake during the procedure because they can't afford to put them under as

Not trying to throw stones here John but this does not sound at all right to me. It sounds like a cheap Vet who did not want to keep the animal under properly because it might cost more. I too have assisted in surgery with neuter, spays, declaws, on domestic and wild cats. I have never seen what you described other than by one Vet who I quite working for after 2 days. He was just very cheap about things and if an animal woke up a little soon you just hurried up and got them sutured quickly; you did not use more money to keep them under a bit longer. Just makes me wonder that’s all. Glenda ;)

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

> None of the problems came from living on concrete. We have some concrete

I guess I'm just trying to rule out other posibilities for the experienced problems as there are a lot of other circumstances besides declawing that could have caused these problems, including nutrition, environment, genetics, and just chance. If you say that you've never declawed your cats but you have some at your facility that are declawed that would imply they were 'rescues?' Do you know the history of those cats with regard to nutrition and care? How about their lineage? Do they have a history or joint disorders? Another thing I'm curious about, are all those named cats above experiencing the spinal problems, dropped ankles and early arthritis? If they are, then I don't think it's an issue with declawing.

I'm very skeptical because I've never read or heard even a hint of such problems as a result of declawing, even from the 'bad' ones. If you want all the bad news on declawing, and the most sensationalist anecdotes, just do a search on the web for "felines declaw complications". The only mention of arthirits is from a little-used precedure of cutting the tendon that is used to extending the claws--I would assume from lack of movement the joints develop calcium growths much like when a limb is in a cast for weeks and the joint is stiff for a time.

> last joint must be removed, and I believe that is true, as we have had a

Actually, it doesn't have to do with the last joint of the toe. The problem you're talking about either happened from improper claw removal or the procedure was done when the cougar was older, as Glenda said.

> My Personal Opinion:

My opinion on that opinion: This is one of those philisophical arguments that gets old really quickly. You are already altering the cat by removing it from the wild, by feeding it a diet of your choice, and by teaching him to work past the limits of his instincts and learn how to interact with you on reasoning level. If these cats wanted to interact with people in the wild outside of meal time they would have done so a long time ago on their own. Some people call that cruel. Others call it necessary. And what happens lies somewhere in both areas. You're not interacting with the real thing.