Declaw Debate 1 (Hot & Heavy !!!)

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:33:51 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

I have been a subscriber to felines-l for about three years and up until now have bitten my tongue regularly over some of the comments. Most of the discussions are very informative and very interesting and I have tended to write directly to a few members with hopefully, helpful comments from time to time. I feel the time has come to get involved in some of the discussion.

In the UK it is ( and has been for some time, ) thankfully illegal to remove cat claws for any reason! I have experienced many cases on visiting collections abroad of cats that have been mutilated and so far cannot see any justification for this to be carried out on any animal. If a cat was born with claws it is because it needs them. If a cat is unfriendly, we simply leave it with a mate of its own species with whom it can relate on its own species terms. We have been exceptionally lucky to have had a number of very friendly cats over the years, including many who will jump on our shoulders doing no damage whatsoever. They keep their claws retracted!

Our cats do not do any damage to their 'enclosure' mates, so why should they be aggressive to us. Cats do have their moments! Some are very agressive over their food or very protective over their young. These you give space to when circumstances dictate. One problem we all face at some time is eye damage to cats from their litter/enclosure mates during play. A bad design fault by the great maker of our solar system or a bad evolutionary design! If you are careful and ensure that any new cat is only left with another or others it is happy to live with, you are not likely to have problems.

We have kept exotic cats here since October 1976. Currently we have 45. We have never considered declawing cats under any circumstances....I certainly would not want my fingernails removed! For cats we have regular contact with, we simply cut the tip of the claw with ordinary pet nail clippers (usually no more than one eigth of an inch) and we have NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS. In the past we have done this with geoffroy's cat, bobcat, jungle cat, caracal, leopard cat and in the recent past with snow leopard. Currently we have two 10 month old snow leopards, who live in an enclosure adjoining our house. They wander around our kitchen and lounge and even when they bounce on us, we suffer no claw damage whatsoever.

If the cat is not friendly enough to allow us to hold its paw for nail cutting, we minimise contact with that animal. We go in the enclosures of all of our cats and none attack us.

I think sometimes, a major problem all of us suffer from at some time is that we would like to be friends with every animal and have a personal safe relationship at any cost. Every animal is an individual...just like people. If you are fortunate enough to be able to keep one of these most beautiful creatures that should be enough. If you are one of the people who is lucky enough to have a cat which wants to be your friend and companion even better. Sadly, on average there may only be one cat in one thousand that is happy to be kept as a house pet.

In the UK, the Dangerous Wild Animal Act of 1996, stopped a lot of people from having exotic cats as pets. Most licence departments of local authorities here insist very stringent conditions are met before a licence is issued. Most now insist that the cats to be kept are for the purpose of conservation work and not as pets!

We will shortly be adding a section on our web site http:\\members.aol.com\cattrust to include advice for those who keep exotic cats. Many of our ideas and experiences are innovative. We will announce this new section on Feline L when it is ready. Dr Terry Moore. Hon Director. The Cat Survival Trust.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:51:55 -0600 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Hey all, I wanted to add our experience on this matter as well. We have tigers, lions and cougars, all of the cats that were brought in at an early age still having their claws were allowed to keep them (we have a no declaw policy). We have never been hurt by a Big Cat because of its claws, I have one that is 3 years of age his name is Sammy (a rather large tiger) and we continue to go into his pen and he never tries to use his claws on us. So I agree with these statements below (above, editor’s note). There is really no need to declaw. The claws are tools for holding their food and scratching an occasional itch, they are not weapons and by declawing you have what I would classify as a false sense of security, by the way every fatal tiger incident including the Holidays was by a declawed tiger.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:52:37 -0600 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Brian, without regard to anyone's belief about whether it should or should not be done (I've had both), what about older cats at your facility that have been declawed...(and I would put the same question to others here who have multiple older cats).

Do some of them (all of them? none of them?) seem to suffer *no consequences at all* from the declawing. In other words, if done properly, does it do harm to them when they get older?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:33:20 -0500 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Yes, it does. Especially on the heavier cats (lions and tigers). Parker

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:36:35 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

What kind of harm does it do? Cliff

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:41:16 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

ALL our cats *came to us* declawed and we have lived with ones with full claws. None of them except one (deceased) who had a BAD butcher job have any problems whatsoever... All were declawed at about three months of age. They now range from five to seven years old and function *quite well* without claws.

I would raise a little concern here about Lions and close play (like we believe in). Lions, it would seem, have little control over their claws. Normally they are retracted but when a threshold pressure is reached on their pads, the claws are triggered into full extend at high velocity and will penetrate fully any human. Not good to have a Lion with claws trip or box you... Otherwise they are as safe as any big cat with no malice in mind. Hope this answers your question...

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:10:25 -0500 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Early arthritis, spinal problems, dropped ankles. This only if it was done "properly". If botched, all kind of problems. Remember that cats walk on their tiptoes.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:16:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Are you confusing this with confinement on a cement floor?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:53:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

I was curious about this and I just got off the phone with someone that's treated and worked with hundreds of big cats both with and without claws and they've never heard of these complications as a unique result of declawing. Perhaps some form of defficiency and/or with cold concrete floors, and even then it's individual to a cat.

I'm curious where you got the information from, Joe?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:56:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

They all sound like wonderful cats that stay in their enclosures and have absolutely no chance of contact with the general public at all. What if you're a facility, like ours, that does off-site presentations where the cats are exposed to the public? Anything like this is the UK? Well, they're all over the US. These past two letters also seem to assume that the declawing is done for the protection of the trainer. Is some cases I'm certain this is true, but not is ALL cases! Our facility does off-site presentations and there's a large element of risk associated with claws and the public. It takes just a swipe by even a bobcat to lay open a wound that needs professional medical attention. I don't know how the libel cases work in other countries, but I certainly know how they work here! Just one moron, on a bet from one of his friends that he can reach over and touch the cool tiger through the bars without getting bit. Since we can't trust or predict the public, and we can't 100% trust or predict the behavior of our cats, a compromise is made to reduce the risk since there is a indeterminate possibility that someone WILL put themselves in danger regardless of our safety measures, beit intentionally or unintentioanlly. Just for the record, we've never had an accident, injury or escape.

I hope this illustrates that not all declawing is done with the intention of making the cat safer for the owner, but sometimes to protect the cat itself.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:49:56 -0500 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

The information comes from the veterinarians at University of Tennessee who treats Knoxville Zoo cats, among others (they will not declaw any animal), and veterinarians who treat tigers here and in Europe. It also comes from India, Gandalf, Tiger Lily, Tigger-Roo and Tia, to name a few. They live here at Tiger Haven and have all been de-clawed. India did not have problems until recently. She is 9 years of age. So I guess you could say it comes also from our experience.

None of the problems came from living on concrete. We have some concrete dens, but the enclosures are dirt and grass. I cannot say whether it came from a "good" or "bad" declaw operation, as we have never had the claws removed from any animal.

All veterinarians we have spoken with say that to declaw a big cat the last joint must be removed, and I believe that is true, as we have had a couple of cats where that was not done. Then the new, deformed claws start to grow back inside the paw. This happened with a cougar and tiger we have.

The tigers and lions we handle, interact with, play with, whatever you choose to name it, all have their claws, front and back. We get some scratches from cubs, but none of us here have ever been injured by a tooth or claw, except for one dumbass who reached for a food pan before the lion was finished with it.

My Personal Opinion: If I must alter an animal in order to interact with it, then I am not interacting with the animal. I am interacting with something I have changed - not the real thing. (I don't think I would like silicone boobs, either.)

As far as making a cat "safe for the public" I don't personally believe that the untrained "public" should handle the cats simply because they pay to have a picture made or have made a "donation" to the facility. If they want to touch a tiger, let then earn it the way most of you and us did, by dedicating ourselves to the cats, and learning the proper methods that are safe for us and enjoyable to the cats.

I realize that I will take a lot of flak for this, as many on this list declaw their animals. I don't give a rat's ass. I have seen too many big cats suffer because someone . . . never mind.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:24:04 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: : declaw

I dont think that declawing a tiger or lion gives anyone a better chance, including the public, first off I would never let the public have contact with a tiger/lion declawed or not, so this would not serve as justification of protecting the cats, nor people. There is a safe way to exhibit to the public with a cat that has claws, it's called hands off.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:38:03 -0600 Subject: FEL-L: declaw

I agree with Joe, why are some of you trying to defend what you are doing to your animals, you are altering them for what you feel to be your needs and not those of the animals, if they didn't need claws for a quality life then they wouldn't have them from birth.

Explain to me why you want to alter them, give some valid reasons as to why as people we shouldn't cut your filanges off-because this is equal to cutting your toes, and or finger joints off from the first section, this is a joint on your cats that you are removing, then to top it all off, many of those who have done this still do not enter into the pens with the animals, so it serves no justification, In my opinion if you need to declaw the animal then you really do not need them, because that tells me that you are scared of them in their natural state. Like I said I have not EVER had a tiger or a lion scratch me with a claw. These are tools that they use for basic daily needs, the evolution process has removed the one claw that tigers originally had as a weapon. Now I am not referencing the lessor cats, I am only familiar with tigers and lions, however, I personally wouldn't even declaw a house cat.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:41:16 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

Hi from the UK. Three private responses already and eleven more on Feline-l. I will respond direct to the private emails but a couple of points to add so far....

1. We also carry out presentations off site when we have cats we feel we can trust. The rules for the Dangerous Wild Animal Act here do not permit any animal at a presentation being outside a portable display enclosure. So no public contact. However many zoos under the Zoo Act regularly take cats off site and allow public contact. A few are responsible but most are purely 'money making' events for the financial benefit quite often of a wealthy 'Rolls Royce owning' zoo owning exhibitionist. How long they will get away with this will depend on how long it takes for an accident to occur. Many close shave incidents have already happened in the UK.

2. Yes, most cats in private hands do stay in their enclosures for their entire life. Most of these are involved in serious conservation breeding programmes and/or are recognised to be 'unsafe' cats. Fortunately, the visitors we receive (members only), are responsible people who do not demand entry to our enclosures. They are just happy to see the animals in our care.

The general rule of thumb in the UK is 'Do not allow any situation to arise where the event could affect its right to live out its natural life.' A number of zoos have had serious and sometimes terminal human accidents. It nearly always results in the animal being put down instead of the totally irresponsible cat handler! If you don't creat the risk the cat does not pay the penalty! I agree there is always the mad idiot who takes the risk. In the UK we have had two people climb the enclosure fence to go and see the Tigers in UK Zoos!

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:50:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

The reason for declawing is to protect the handlers. If you don't handle your cats, then fine. But as you move into the world of big cats, if you continue to leave in claws, and you continue to interact with your cats. You're going to seen some serious injuries. And if you go with Lions or Tigers, possibly a death. Accidents happen you know, but when your neck gets accidently slit open, you die in seconds. (Happened to a friend of a friend.)

Please do not give me the old bullsh*t about it 'mutilating' the cat. If your vet is good, it isn't. Please don't tell me it hurts the cats, it doesn't. And please don't put your feelings onto the cat and then give it all to us in human terms. These AREN'T your children.

Besides, I see no compuction about cutting off balls and ripping out wombs from the same people so agast at declawing, does anyone else?

YEs I would prefer to leave claws in. I don't like removing them. But don't tell me how bad it is in one sentance, the go on about steilication, when sterilization has a far worse effect on an animal.

The whole reason for the anti-declawing laws in europe has nothing to do with the quality of life of the cat. Only a fool would believe that (Sorry for the harsh language, but I'm just calling a spade a spade). It's to help PREVENT people from OWNING these animals. And please do not recount to me the testimony of vets and other such people, all of whom have NO EXPERICENE, nor the few people with their own agendy that is being pushed here. I've heard it all before, and there are no facts to support it, just emotions.

So before the next person rails on at me about this, come on over, I'll let you remove my fingernails, if I get to gut or castrate you. Lets see who has the better 'quality' of life afterwards.

Besides, if you're 'fixing' your cats, then you really aren't serious about conservation, are you? After all, how does that help perpetuate the species?

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

> Early arthritis, spinal problems, dropped ankles. This only if it was

These sound like problems from concrete floors, and cold. I've never seen this. And most animals walk on their 'toes' claws do not enter into that.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:10:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

>All veterinarians we have spoken with say that to declaw a big cat the last joint must be removed

This isn't true! Your vet's aren't very good at their jobs!!! If you remove the nail bed (I think that's what it's called), they don't grow back. This isn't easy on small cats, so most just remove that joint, but on bigger cats if your vet has experience, that is what you do.

I suggest you get some vet's who aren't treating big cats like tabbys!!

>If I must alter an animal in order to interact with it, then I am not interacting

Putting a cat in a cage changes it. Owning a cat changes it. RAISING a cat chages it. Having a cat changes it.

Please, we all alter our animals just by having them. And having them is a far bigger alteration then declawing. I think your cats are having problems as they get older cause the vets simply botched the job.

>As far as making a cat "safe for the public"

Myself, I'm all for getting involved in crossbreeding and such and trying to come up with a domesticatable big cat. So at least something will be around in a hundred years to remind us of the ones that are extinct.

As for letting people get close and maybe touch a cat, well if you're animals are trained well enough for it, I'm all for it. Money makes the workd go around and we all need it. Besides, anyone that can train a cat that well, should be showing the world what is truely possible.

Cats viewed only thru cages will be seen as fearful animals, better off extinct. Which by the way, many will be soon.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

> cutting your toes, and or finger joints off from the first section, this is

You're only cutting off the joint if you're doing it wrong. Hey I've assisted my vet on declaws. I know what he does. He thinks cutting off that last joint is butchery, especially on a large cat where it's a lot easier to work.

If your vet does this, get another vet.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:32:36 -0500 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

If you can't handle the cats with claws, then you can't handle the cats. Do I handle cats with claws? Yes. Have I been injured in 11 years? No. Could it happen? Yes, as it could to you with teeth. Let's check with some who have handled cats with claws for thirty or forty years. I know several who are still alive who would speak with us.

>Please do not give me the old bullsh*t about it 'mutilating' the

Is a tiger with paralyzed paws bullshit? Is a tiger who walks flatfooted bullshit? Is a cougar with claws growing up his paws bullshit? Is early arthritis bullshit? No, they aren't my children. They are beings who feel pain. They are beings who will never again have the satisfaction of scratching behind their ear. What's the difference in "human terms" and "animal terms" when it comes to pain? Is it OK if they suffer pain?

>Besides, I see no compuction about cutting off balls and ripping out wombs

I don't believe I have ever mention steriization on this list. However, have you ever heard of ripping out a womb because of a cancerous tumor?

>And please do not recount to me the testimony of vets and other such

Let me see: Dr. Ramsey has about 20 years experience. Dr. Wright has about 15 years experience. Dr. Marcan has about 40 years experience. Dr. Dieter has about 30 years experience. How much experience do you have? Have you seen the results of your work after 8 or 10 years? Do you care?

>own agendy that is being pushed here.

What agenda other than declawing cats? Tiger Haven fully supports qualified private ownership, and condemns those who think by declawing a tiger makes them a lap cat.

>I've heard it all before, and there are no facts to support it, just emotions.

There are facts, as you have seen. By the way, what is wrong with emotions? Do you have none?

>Besides, if you're 'fixing' your cats

We do not perpetuate the species. We give a good life to those cats who other irresponsible breeders and declawers have perpetuated then could not even feed or clean up after them.

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:25:25 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: declaw

On this issue, I agree 100% with John VS... While it was heating up I did a fairly good search of vet and medical literature and concluded that: There are many endogenous an exoginous reasons for arthritis to develop in older age... Not one mention, however, of declawing... Cats develop arthritus for the exact same reasons as people do... It even seems that in many cases, a casual diagnosis of arthritis will be completely off tract... Virus infections, immune system loss or auto-immune diseases, lack of sufficient excerise, long term nutritional deficiencies that are common enough, and genetics seemed to be the predominate causes of arthritis.

Typically, it also appears that declawing problems would show up first as simple sprains, not arthritis.

And as a side comment, claws made their way through evolution, not to scratch an itch or to hold food, but to kill another animal as quickly as possible in both offense and defense.

In conclusion, I feel that declawing, in the end, is more an ethical issue that is appropriate under certain conditions of captivity, and equally inappropriate under others...