Fasting one or two days a week - or not

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:20:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: aggression @feeding (fwd)

> I agree. Cats need to be able to cleanse their systems. We fast our

This is a subject that I'd be willing to hear more emperical facts about. I've been told by people that fast that it's good to clean out the cat's system, and I've heard from others that it's not really necessary. I've seen sparlking cats and ill cats on both feeding schedules, but so far nothing that really points to fasting as a notable benificial practice. Personally, working with the bigger cats, I like to minimize any interaction with them that results in aggression, and especially aggression directed at me.

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:49:48 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

<< Cats need to be able to cleanse their systems. We fast our

In reading the posts these questions came to mind;

Cats have relatively short intestines and digestive tracts, digestion of food is fairly rapid. In humans, one of the purposes of fasting is to help rid the body of impurities and toxin build up in the liver pancreas, spleen and intestines, that often occurs from longer digestion times. People eat a variety of junk that adds to these problems also. Cats in the wild gorge themselves, this slows the digestive process and typically creates a type of fast because of the slowed digestion process, but in captivity their food sources is regulated, normally so they have no need to gorge themselves. If a cats diet is nutritionally sound (no junk food) with the correct supplements, been wormed, they have adequate access to fresh water. Their bowel movements and urine are normal in smell, color, size and texture and their coat is healthy and shiny, eyes bright... all evidence of nutritional well being.

*What is the rational for the fasting method?
*In the fast method of feeding, are the cats allowed to gorge themselves before they are fasted like the do in the wild?
*Does the fasting help in metabolic, utilization and conversion of food nutrients?
*Does fasting method cause more aggressive behavior than non fasting method?
*What would be the rational for the non fasting method of feeding over the fasting method?

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:25:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

I fast once a week (usually, not always) because that was what I was taught. There have been many reasons given for it, and I do often give a better feed either before or after. I also feed only once a day.

Now if I had the time, I would probably switch to a multiple feeding schedule. I have a large amount of respect for the person that showed it to me, and I have to admit that some of their reasons do make sense.

As for aggression, well I really don't stand for it. I often hand feed the cats that I raised. The cats I have that weren't raised by me have to learn to behave, or they don't get their food until they settle down. Really bad behaviour may get a squirt with the spray bottle, unless another cat is 'egging them on' so to say.

I have found since I started this that all the cats, even the ones I didn't raise are much more mellow about food. My leopard still goes thru phases that can be really bad at times, but I've noticed this seems to only be after a heat cycle. I think if I had her on 3 feeds a day, it wouldn't happen at all.

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:40:29 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: aggression @feeding (fwd)

We have always fed our Servals twice a day. They breed well, are not too fat, and are not agressive at feeding time, although the male will "grab" raw chicken or turkey. I see no need to make any animal go hungry.

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:47:39 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

> *What is the rational for the fasting method?

Wild cats go for up to 7 days in the wild with out eating so it is natural for them to fast. I guess to lessen the chance of toxins building up in their systems and staying around for long periods of time to cause disease. Kind of a preventive maintenance thing.

> *In the fast method of feeding, are the cats allowed to gorge themselves

cat will eat up to 70 or 80 pounds at one sitting. Under captive circumstances most big cats can eat much less than that from day to day and process O.K.

> *Does the fasting help in metabolic, utilization and conversion of food

I am not a Vet so I wouldn't know about that. The USDA guidelines call for fasting 1 or 2 non-consecutive days per week. But I think the idea of fasting is to let the digestive system have a period of inactive time to rest and cleanse toxins from their system naturally instead of continually working the digestive tract until these toxins build up and cause problems that need more expensive and complicated measures to fix. In the wild when they go days without food so their systems would cleanse and remove toxins as well as converting any build up of fats into energy. I think fasting was designed to help felines in captivity reap the same benefits as cats in the wild from fasting but to do it in a smaller way so that our feline friends don't experience the severe hunger that their wild counterparts do.

> *Does fasting method cause more aggressive behavior than non fasting

I would not think that fasting on 1 or 2 non-consecutive days per week should make cats that are otherwise well fed and cared for be anymore aggressive than usual.

> *What would be the rational for the non fasting method of feeding over

More than likely it makes it easier for the owners to keep their cats appetite well satified and of course the cats are happy when they have a full stomach all the time. Most people are easily led to believe the story that their cats tell them. The one that goes like: Oh see me, poor poor kitty, starving, please feed me or I will just fad away. If you loved me you would feed me! They usually do this while the sport around a big ole fat roll that hangs under their stomach. I know this personally from all my cats. They tell strangers the same story: Oh poor me they never feed me and I need more food Pleeeeease. In the meantime the have a tough time cleaning their butts cause they can't hardly get to them. I guess if your cats are not over weight feed however you want but if they are they need the fast to at least control the overweight thing.

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:59:05 -0700 Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

I've been feeding my bobcats, lynx, and servals twice a day, every day for over 10 years and haven't had any problems that could be attributed to digestive disturbances caused by not fasting. The closest these 'brats' ever get to fasting is missing one of their two meals a day, and those you could count on one hand over the entire 10+ years.

Although I have no 'facts' on the subject, I think there is probably a difference in fasting the smaller cats and the 'big cats', because of the way they catch and eat prey in the wild. For instance, if a lion or tiger brings down a large animal and gorges itself, it needs some time to digest that massive amount of food. Compare that to a bobcat who may be catching mice or other small animals on a regular basis and expending more energy doing it. Small cats may also have higher metabolisms. (Somebody let me know on this one).

Most of the cats I have rescued were on a one meal a day feeding schedule with some fasting and were very aggressive about their food when they arrived. It changes their whole personality to put them on a two meal per day schedule. They probably don't eat any more, they just aren't as hungry or aggressive. You should see the look of disbelief on their faces the first few times they get fed an extra meal at 'the wrong time of day'!

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 06:53:43 -0600 Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

Another question about fasting: I wonder how much of this need to fast is due to the enormous amounts they eat at one time in the wild. I mean, is the need to eat huge amounts at once and then fast for a week an evolution thing, so that their digestive systems are truly different, are is the fasting in the wild more a result of the eating of the huge amount at one time?

In other words, since they eat smaller amounts in captivity, is the need to fast really there? If the same amount of food is spread into one or even two feedings a day, and they never ingest that much at one time, is it possible their digestive tracts don't need that "rest". Why would toxins build up in a cat's system and not in another animals system?

Just asking curious questions of the anatomists and biologists and medical pros out there.

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:50:10 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: ? about fasting

<< Most of the cats I have rescued were on a one meal a day feeding

Smaller cats have higher metabolisms than the larger cats and require more energy.

Even people who have higher metabolisms compared to people who have slower metabolisms, need to eat more frequently to meet their bodies needs. If they don't get what they need it causes a chemical imbalance and the people with higher metabolisms are more likely to become easily agitated. We found when I was working with people with serious mental illness their aggressive behavior was linked in part to diet and their metabolic needs. In working with animals mammals) I have noticed the same thing. There was an interesting study done with livestock guardian dogs who have a slower metabolism than say livestock herding dogs who have higher metabolic rate. It was found that even though the livestock guardian dogs were bigger in size and weight than the herding dogs they functioned much better and were less aggressive on 1 small feeding a day with a low protein food. The herding dogs on the other hand who are smaller but have higher metabolism functioned much better and were less aggressive on higher protein feeds with 2 feedings a day. I don't know of any studies that have been done like this with felids. Any one else know of studies?

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:55:59 -0800 Subject: FEL-L: Resting a Cat's Stomach

>physiological reasons for allowing the stomach to rest.

I am not going to stop feeding my Serval every day, but I would be interested in reading whatever proof may be posted to see if it has any relation to smaller cats

I would "guess" this is more related to the large cats, who catch large game and GORGE themselves on 20-30 (more?) pounds of meat, and then don't eat for a day or two

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:04:20 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: Resting a Cat's Stomach

> I would "guess" this is more related to the large cats, who

Right on, John... I would also like to see a "professional" study which confirms that gorging a normal two day meal is any more "gentle" or appropriate for the digestive system than a consistent and managed one day meal is... The gorged two day meal takes two full days to digest and then it's off to breakfast again...

And does anyone relate this behavior to the obvious fact of energy conservation, which isn't an issue with captive cats... This feeding profile suggests, quite simply, that two or three meals can be had for the "price" of one... Just like shopping for groceries on bargain day... There are other reasons for gorging also, such as laying in a good supply of food before the hyenas find you.

I submit that gorging feeding behavior, coupled with the stress of haste in the wild, though not at all universal, is far more of an insult to the digestive system than captive feeding programs of once, or even two times a day...

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:18:09 -0800 Subject: Re: FEL-L: Resting a Cat's Stomach

Exactly right John. Unless you're feeding your cats the way they eat in the wild by gorging on huge amounts of food at one time, it is doubtful that their digestive system 'needs' a rest.

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:30:05 EST Subject: Re: FEL-L: More on Resting a (Small) Cat's Stomach

Hi John, I think I agree too. We are always ingrained with the thought that several smaller meals are better than one larger one. Again, I think that goes back to the allowing the stomach to rest bit. But still, it just *sounds* healthier. And you're absolutely right in that a lot of what goes on in the wild, simply doesn't pertain to captive husbandry. After all, in the wild they're exposed to numerous bacterial and viral conditions naturally that we're not going to emulate, just to build resistance. On the other hand, by taking a look at their "natural" diet, we can probably get a good idea of what their natural requirements are.

I was speaking with someone else about the wild being a starting place. Take into consideration EVERYTHING they ingest, and this doesn't mean the entire animal, simply the parts eaten, as well as whatever grazing, insects, etc... Then study the ratios of what is eaten, so you can proportionately figure out a natural diet. There are tons and tons of studies and observations done on this alone, so it's not that difficult a challenge. Sure, it may mean driving to your State University library to access it, but its well worth the drive. At that point, you can start testing to see what the composition is with regards protein, fat, carbs, etc... And of course, take into consideration the studies already done on exactly that.

Now I freely admit my ignorance, so if anyone sees that I'm missing the big picture, please clue me in. I just started checking into this yesterday, and already I've got about five pages of reference material, just on the bobcats and lynx alone. The wildlife veterinarian responses are just starting to trickle in, its an exciting issue.

Date: 20 Jan 1999 16:52:25 -0800 Subject: FEL-L: Captive- a generic term...

Back again: very obvious point, but should have made it nonetheless.

With regards behaviour, diet, everything... have to take into consideration the fact that captive management encompasses a vast continuum from near-total domesticated pet through zero contact, conservation purposes only.

If there are too many differences between wild and captive to make any observation really all that valid, I would also contend that the difference between one end of the captive continuum and the other is potentially even greater.

Date: 20 Jan 1999 19:14:58 -0800 Subject: FEL-L: Re: Captive- a generic term... AND The bigger picture...

<< If there are too many differences between wild and captive to make any
>I read this paragraph three different times and still don't understand what you're trying to state. Can you restate this for my benefit in less abstract terms? Thanks! :-)

That is to say, if observation in the wild cannot be used a baseline for captive management (in this particular case, feeding behaviour, content, etc.) THEN I would also say that trying to take one particular approach for a given cat in captivity and applying it across the whole continuum of cats in captivity is equally invalid.

viz. If you do not use wild observations as a baseline, what *do* you use? 'Best practise' from disparate individuals will always be contentious unless you do have some sort of baseline to argue from... and someone has to set it (it might as well be 'Mother Nature').